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| Name: |
LifeTime Laker
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| Subject: |
Ivan's challenge
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Date:
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3/3/2008 11:17:43 AM
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Since I doubt Ivan will actually follow a link that will give him EXACTLY what he asked for in his challenge to me, I decided to cut and paste here for him and the rest of you. Of course his next step is to dismiss the facts because they are published in a 'conservative' publication.
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INVASION USA
Illegal aliens murder
12 Americans daily
Death toll in 2006 far overshadows total
U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq, Afghanistan
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Posted: November 28, 2006
1:00 am Eastern
By Joseph Farah
© 2008 WorldNetDaily.com
WASHINGTON ? While the military "quagmire" in Iraq was said to tip the scales of power in the U.S. midterm elections, most Americans have no idea more of their fellow citizens ? men, women and children ? were murdered this year by illegal aliens than the combined death toll of U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan since those military campaigns began.
Though no federal statistics are kept on murders or any other crimes committed by illegal aliens, a number of groups have produced estimates based on data collected from prisons, news reports and independent research.
Twelve Americans are murdered every day by illegal aliens, according to statistics released by Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa. If those numbers are correct, it translates to 4,380 Americans murdered annually by illegal aliens. That's 21,900 since Sept. 11, 2001.
Total U.S. troop deaths in Iraq as of last week were reported at 2,863. Total U.S. troop deaths in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Uzbekistan during the five years of the Afghan campaign are currently at 289, according to the Department of Defense.
(Story continues below)
But the carnage wrought by illegal alien murderers represents only a fraction of the pool of blood spilled by American citizens as a result of an open border and un-enforced immigration laws.
While King reports 12 Americans are murdered daily by illegal aliens, he says 13 are killed by drunk illegal alien drivers ? for another annual death toll of 4,745. That's 23,725 since Sept. 11, 2001.
While no one ? in or out of government ? tracks all U.S. accidents caused by illegal aliens, the statistical and anecdotal evidence suggests many of last year's 42,636 road deaths involved illegal aliens.
A report by the AAA Foundation for Traffic Study found 20 percent of fatal accidents involve at least one driver who lacks a valid license. In California, another study showed that those who have never held a valid license are about five times more likely to be involved in a fatal road accident than licensed drivers.
Statistically, that makes them an even greater danger on the road than drivers whose licenses have been suspended or revoked ? and nearly as dangerous as drunk drivers.
King also reports eight American children are victims of sexual abuse by illegal aliens every day ? a total of 2,920 annually.
Based on a one-year in-depth study, Deborah Schurman-Kauflin of the Violent Crimes Institute of Atlanta estimates there are about 240,000 illegal immigrant sex offenders in the United States who have had an average of four victims each. She analyzed 1,500 cases from January 1999 through April 2006 that included serial rapes, serial murders, sexual homicides and child molestation committed by illegal immigrants.
As the number of illegal aliens in the U.S. increases, so does the number of American victims.
According to Edwin Rubenstien, president of ESR Research Economic Consultants, in Indianapolis in 1980, federal and state correctional facilities held fewer than 9,000 criminal aliens. But at the end of 2003, approximately 267,000 illegal aliens were incarcerated in all U.S. jails and prisons.
While the federal government doesn't track illegal alien murders, illegal alien rapes or illegal alien drunk driving deaths, it has studied illegal aliens incarcerated in U.S. prisons.
In April 2005, the Government Accountability Office released a report on a study of 55,322 illegal aliens incarcerated in federal, state, and local facilities during 2003. It found the following:
The 55,322 illegal aliens studied represented a total of 459,614 arrests ? some eight arrests per illegal alien;
Their arrests represented a total of about 700,000 criminal offenses ? some 13 offenses per illegal alien;
36 percent had been arrested at least five times before.
"While the vast majority of illegal aliens are decent people who work hard and are only trying to make a better life for themselves and their families, (something you or I would probably do if we were in their place), it is also a fact that a disproportionately high percentage of illegal aliens are criminals and sexual predators," states Peter Wagner, author of a new report called "The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration." "That is part of the dark side of illegal immigration and when we allow the 'good' in we get the 'bad' along with them. The question is, how much 'bad' is acceptable and at what price?"
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| Name: |
UncleSam
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| Subject: |
Ivan's challenge
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Date:
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3/3/2008 3:09:26 PM
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I find a few things troubling about your post, and the conservative nature of the website is not one of them. However, I do wonder about a website that is often blocked by organizations that I (and, I gather, you) find honorable and reputable, such as the U.S. Navy and the U.S. Marine Corps. They are charged with defending freedom with their lives if necessary, and I consider the media as a freedom; when they decide that a certain media outlet is more worthy of blocking than defending, I have to question the worthiness of that media outlet.
I also don't like the way this line: "Twelve Americans are murdered every day by illegal aliens, according to statistics released by Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa. IF THOSE NUMBERS ARE CORRECT" (emphasis mine) is tossed out there, then ignored. A news story should not be written and treated as fact when it has to admit that the data is unproven, maybe flawed, and quite possibly false. The entire story, based on that paragraph, is speculation at best, yet you have to read carefully to notice their disclaimer.
Along those lines, we find this part of the story: "
A report by the AAA Foundation for Traffic Study found 20 percent of fatal accidents involve at least one driver who lacks a valid license. In California, another study showed that those who have never held a valid license are about five times more likely to be involved in a fatal road accident than licensed drivers.
Statistically, that makes them an even greater danger on the road than drivers whose licenses have been suspended or revoked ? and nearly as dangerous as drunk drivers."
These statistics only matter to this story if those people who "lack a valid license," "never held a valid license" and "whose licenses have been suspended or revoked" are ALL illegal aliens! The odds of that being true are tiny at best. Yet once again, the reporter does nothing to point that out; that's an indication that the reporter has a conclusion that he wants the story to reach and is manipulating things to reach that end; to me that speaks volumes about the validity of this story.
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| Name: |
LifeTime Laker
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| Subject: |
Ivan's challenge
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Date:
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3/3/2008 4:37:23 PM
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You have some valid points, but in today's media circus I don't think you will find ANY story that is not biased in one direction or another. As far as blocked websites, well in MOST cases that boils down to one person's own bias. Whoever is making those decisions is most likely exhibiting their own bias. You would have to provide a list of all the blocked sites for that organization. A task which I have no desire to attempt. That is just one source of the stats anyway. I have seen the same or simular stats quoted elswhere with different sources. One thing is for sure, the original statement I made is true. Illegal immigrants are killing more folks here than are being killed in the war.
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| Name: |
ecstasypoint
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| Subject: |
Ivan's challenge
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Date:
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3/3/2008 4:56:05 PM
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I'm probably going to be sorry I jumped in here . . . but frankly I don't see a big difference between hating on black people and hating on immigrants. It seems somewhat illogical to spend hours to prove someone else is a racist and then post a bunch of hateful and harmful remarks about another group. The hateful violent venom in this country is going to end up being one of our biggest problems, compounded of course by our greed and arrogance.
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| Name: |
LifeTime Laker
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| Subject: |
Ivan's challenge
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Date:
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3/3/2008 5:13:25 PM
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If you don't see the difference between racism and illegal immagration then your judgement is clouded by something IMHO. Illegal immagrants broke the law coming here, working here and staying here. And YES, I am ANTI illegal immagrant, as is 72% of the country according to recent polls. I don't blame anyone in the world for wanting to come here, but do it legally.
There is a BIG difference between hating someone because of the color of their skin, and wanting anyone who broke the law to suffer the consequences.
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| Name: |
ecstasypoint
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| Subject: |
Ivan's challenge
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Date:
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3/3/2008 5:24:35 PM
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There may be a difference between hating someone for race and wanting to see people punished for breaking the law. But there is no difference in grouping people together and making generalizations about their behaviors based on your having included them in a group. I'm not defending illegal immigration, but I really do have a problem with the way people want to group, name, and hate, and I think that tendency will bite us all in the end. Spewing hate is spewing hate whatever the reason. And using crimes that members of this group may have committed as if it diminishes the stupidity and waste of the Iraq war is beyond comment as far as I can tell.
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| Name: |
Arnold
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| Subject: |
Ivan's challenge
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Date:
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3/3/2008 6:48:17 PM
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The voice of reason does not usually prevail on this forum topic even though you've given it a good shot. For the most, I agree with your perspective. Unfortunately, you're debating the dynamic duo of ignorance and intolerance.
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| Name: |
UncleSam
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| Subject: |
Ivan's challenge
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Date:
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3/3/2008 7:03:16 PM
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"One thing is for sure, the original statement I made is true. Illegal immigrants are killing more folks here than are being killed in the war." Yet even your won source makes the disclaimer "IF these numbers are correct." The person who wrote the article questions the statistics, but you don't??
I looked into it, just a little bit, and found the article pasted below: (link to the article is http://www.vdare.com/rubenstein/070112_nd.htm)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Psssst…..Have you heard? Twelve Americans are murdered every day by illegal aliens.
The figure comes to us via a “SPECIAL MESSAGE” e-mail from “Stephen Frank’s ‘California Political News and Views’.”
They source it to the “Minuteman Civil Defense Corps.”
The Minutemen, in turn, cite a “report” by Representative Steve King of Iowa.
But Rep. King’s press release attributes the 12 per day figure to………nothing.
No source is cited. The trail is cold.
Anecdotes aside, we actually know precious little about the total volume of crimes committed by illegal aliens. Reason: The FBI’s uniform crime reports, regarded as the most reliable and comprehensive source of crime data, does not record nativity of perpetrators—let alone their legal status. Even the ethnicity of arrestees is obscured by lumping Hispanics in with Anglo whites.
Not for the first time, the government apparently just doesn’t want to hear bad news about immigration’s impact.
Even so, the FBI stats do tend to undercut the Frank/Minuteman/King assertions. Of the 10,083 individuals arrested for murder in 2005, only 4,955 were white/Hispanic. At 12 per day, illegals would kill 4,380 per year.
Implication: nearly all of the white/Hispanics arrested for murder in 2005 would have to be illegal aliens for the 12/day factoid to be credible.
Of course, the 12/day refers to murders, not perpetrators. If illegals are disproportionately mass murderers, a handful could have done it. Alternatively, illegals may get away with murder at greater rates than the rest of us. That would indeed be the case if most of their victims were other illegals, with no next of kin to report their disappearance.
Several states break out Hispanic arrests separately. In California, for example, 946 Hispanics were arrested for murder in 2005. (Table 1.) An estimated 2.8 million illegals – equivalent to about one-quarter of California’s Hispanic population – lived there in 2005, according to the Census. (That’s probably an egregious underestimate since the Census survey on which it is based puts the total U.S. illegal alien population at 11.5 million, a figure thought low by many.)
My conservative calculation: If one-quarter of the Hispanics arrested for murder were illegals, then 0.65 murders per day could, on average, be attributed to illegals. California is home to about one-quarter of all illegals. So by extrapolation, illegals could kill 2.6 persons per day across the U.S.
Ouch. That’s certainly less than 12. But it’s still a lot.
Moreover, Hispanic homicide rates are increasing faster than those of other groups. (See Table 1 again.) From 2000 to 2005, California’s Hispanic murder rate (arrests per 100,000 Hispanic population) rose 16.8 percent, to 7.44.
Comparable rates for non-Hispanic whites went up 3.1 percent, to 2.44, while murder rates of the “other” group, which includes non-Hispanic Asians, fell to 2.56, a 20.4 percent decline from 2000.
Blacks are the perennial outliers. They have both the highest murder rate—21.8 arrests per 100,000 population—and the fastest rate of increase—up 20 percent between 2000 and 2005.
But Hispanic population growth will inevitably overwhelm the Black-Hispanic murder rate differential. It already has in California, where in 2005 nearly twice as many Hispanics were arrested for murder as Blacks.
As California goes……so goes the nation. The day when illegal aliens (and, especially, their citizen-children) kill 12 Americans per day is, after all, not too far off.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
"No source." "Attributed to... nothing." "The trail is cold." This coming from an article that is as unbiased as I've ever seen. (At times, it seems to take BOTH sides of the argument, doesn't it?) So why are you so positive that the numbers are truthful and accurate?
It seems I'm not the only one who questions that article; I found this: (link: http://blogs.chron.com/bluebayou/2006/11/fanning_the_immigration_flames.html)
>>>>>There may in fact be a major problem with illegal immigrants committing crimes in this country, but this story fails to provide any believable evidence of that, despite its sassy "you're under attack!" headline. Is it too much to actually want facts - not anecdotes, not heart-wrenching tales of individual victims, but some statistically valid data - before reaching conclusions?
There is value to getting news from people who are at least trying to report it accurately.
The second point: when you're reading news stories, click the links, look at the sources, and apply a critical eye to them. Sometimes the "Violent Crime Institute" is one person in a little office. Sometimes a "number of groups" is a guy with a methodology that would get an F in a 10th grade science class.
And the best time to check those sources, I find, is when a story is telling you exactly what you want to hear. Because that's when you're most easily misled.
Oh, and one final point: WorldNetDaily should be viewed as entertainment or satire only. Caveat lector! <<<<
I think he was talking to you. :-)
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| Name: |
LifeTime Laker
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| Subject: |
Ivan's challenge
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Date:
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3/3/2008 7:12:20 PM
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I have to presume since I started the thread your your negative comments refer to me. I am a lot of things, but ignorant and/or intolerant fall nowhere on that list. Ignorant means uneducated. I can assure you I am not. Intolerant means not willing to accomadate others. Once again a swing and a miss.
To compare blacks whose only crime is to be born with more pigment to ANYONE, regardless of skin color, who breaks both the United States and International law by coming here ILLEGALLY shows total lack of comprehension of the subject or an unwillingness to consider other veiwpoints. But it does show that you seem to have a little intolerance toward those that don't agree with your point of view.
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| Name: |
LifeTime Laker
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| Subject: |
Ivan's challenge
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Date:
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3/3/2008 7:25:57 PM
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World Net Daily should not be considered a 'news' source but somebody's blog is a citable source. Come on, you know bettter than that. Who edits the 'blog'? Who fact checks that blog? Heck for that matter who writes it? My point being ANYBODY can put up a blog, at least WND has editors. The blog you cited may also, I am not going to invest the time to find out.
I have heard the 12 figure used several times in different forums. Where did it originate? I don't know, but it doesn't even matter. Lets use your conservative numbers from CA. They extrapolate out to 949/year. Even that number is more on average than have been killed in the War On Terror, so by disputing my 'facts' you have proven my argument. Thanks!!
I just get tired of hearing about how horrible the war is. Yes, war is hell, and it is a good thing that it is. If it wasn't we would have a lot more of it. You wont find many, if any, posts where I defend G.W. I supported him in both elections yes, but that was more about his opponents than him. The only area where I consistently aggree with him is the war. I am tired of liberal, hate America first, mamby pambies that think we should 'talk' to the terrorist. You can't reason with anyone who is blinded by hate and has a sworn oath to kill you.
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| Name: |
Ivan
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| Subject: |
Ivan's challenge
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Date:
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3/5/2008 6:25:57 AM
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LTL, you mention these ILLEGALS breaking the law. So you have NEVER broken the law? Never went over the speed limit? Never drank after drinking? By the way, read some history when you have a chance: Many of the Western United States belonged to those "IILEGALS" before our own government TOOK THEIR LAND ILLEGALLY! Get a life you Southern Biggot
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| Name: |
LifeTime Laker
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| Subject: |
Name calling is a sure way
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Date:
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3/5/2008 10:28:11 AM
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to show that you have been beaten on the intellectual level.
NEWS FLASH-- ALL of this land belonged to someone else before our ancestors took it. Just so happens that the SW U.S. was won in a war. To the victor belong the spoils. Now if Mexico wants it back, let them arm themselves, line up, and charge!! I know a few ranchers that might have a little say in that matter, not to mention the best equipped, best trained, most highly skilled fighting force the world has ever seen.
Stick to water issues and you won't look like such an idiot. You liberals would LOVE to redifine the word bigot to fit into your vision of the world. Just because some of us would demand that anyone wanting to come to the US should do it LEGALLY does not make us bigots. It does make us patriots.
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| Name: |
Ivan
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| Subject: |
Name calling is a sure way
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Date:
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3/5/2008 10:23:14 PM
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NO BUDDY, YOU'RE A BIGGOT PLAIN AND SIMPLE. USING FALSE INFORMATION TO FURTHER YOUR CAUSE FUTHER, REINFORCES THE FACT OF WHAT YOU ARE. IF YOU HAVEN'T PRO-CREATED YET, DON'T; IF YOU HAVE, I FEEL SORRY FOR THE LITTLE BIGGOTS THAT YOU'VE CREATED, BECAUSE THEY'RE ONLY GOING TO BE AS SAD AS YOU ARE. By the way, the Mexicans don't have to attack the USA to win back their land, they already have it.
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| Name: |
LifeTime Laker
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| Subject: |
Name calling is a sure way
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Date:
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3/6/2008 8:09:15 AM
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What false information did I use? YOU are the only one here expressing ANY intolerance, but that is what liberals always do.
But back to the first question, what false info? You don't think that the SW US was won in a war. Santa Ana and a couple of hundred folks at the Alamo may have argued that point. But facts always get in the way of liberal arguments.
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| Name: |
InjunJohn
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| Subject: |
InjunJohn's Challenge
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Date:
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3/6/2008 8:32:49 AM
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Politics & religion are 2 topics that should never be debated on a forum... there are never any winners, and never any losers. CAN't WE ALL JUST GET ALONG? May the Great Spirit Walker always guide your paths.
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