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Name:	slisasucks -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	4/29/2008 11:26:16 PM

It's amazing just how quickly Smith Lake filled back up when the area finally started getting some rain. You have to commend Alabama Power for a fine job managing the lake levels/down stream flows during one of the worst droughts in US history. I for one, gladly accepts the professional manner that APCO uses in it's operation of the many lakes in the Alabama watershed. Being able to enjoy their lakes, is also a nice side benefit.

Name:	waterph -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	4/30/2008 7:35:48 AM

I would urge you to wait until the period July through September before you start praising Alabama Power. Keeping the level at 509.5 is a no brainer at this time of the year with cooler water temperatures and with the rain fall that we have had.

If a 500 to 502 minimum level is not agreed to by Alabama Power, watch the level go down in 2008 even in a non drought year. The only difference between 2008 and 2007 will be that the level change will be that for cooling purposes at Gorgas without a drought contribution. Rather than the 2007 drought level of 491, watch for 495 to 496, historical numbers in a non drought period.

Without a minimum level agreement, the curve for lake level for 2008 will be very similar to 1991 forward. Just look at the water level curve shown on this forum. Then, comment in this forum about the good job Alabama Power is doing.

Name:	slisasucks -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	4/30/2008 8:00:17 AM

Why does a minimum level of 500-502 need to be kept? There's a graph, that shows the level ranges for Smith Lake, and it seems that for the most part, ALPC has done a stellar job of keeping the levels within that range. You guys come up with an arbitrary number, based on nothing else but selfishness on your part, and Alabama Power is supposed to follow your directions? Why? Do you own any of the land that's submerged by the lake? Did you pay for any of that land? Did you pay for the construction of the dam? Power station? I will again like to commend Alabama Power for a STELLER job managing both the needs of the lake and the needs of the downstream stake holders. There is more to this equation than SLISA!

Name:	waterph -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	4/30/2008 9:56:42 AM

Why can you not keep to the subject being discussed? Never did I attack Alabama Power. I simply mentioned that lake levels would probably be lowered to meet the power generating requirements of the Gorgas Plant. SLISA, developers, etc. were never mentioned in my comments. I simply was commenting on how I think lake level will change in 2008 if a minimum level is not maintained. I do have a right to comment on lake levels and just because I prefer a minimum of 500 feet does not mean that I am an evil person. Others on this forum who are not connected with any development and are simply private property owners as I am are also interested in a minimum lake level for a variety of reasons.

Alabama Power did develop Smith Lake to generate electricity and for recreation for the citizens in this area. No one disagrees with this. If Alabama Power never has to consider input from the citizens of this area on a variety of subjects associated with Smith Lake, why is a permit needed from FERC?

As I said earlier in one of my letters to this forum, your vocabulary appears to be limited to crooks, greed, SLISA, Jared, Tarrie, developers, etc. Again, what are you trying to accomplish? I asked for your comments on air pollution from Gorgas and you elected to ignore. Jared and his wife also asked for an open discussion and I do not yet see a response. I have never met Jared Key nor his wife but I do not see them talking in generalities. They appear to be factual.

Name:	Deliverance -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	4/30/2008 9:30:44 PM

Obviously, the person hiding behind "SLISASUCKS" either works for or has relatives that work for Al. Pwr, OR they are the typical Hillary, Obama, liberal, commy, pinko supporter.

Name:	slisasucks -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	4/30/2008 11:34:28 PM

Ant the person hiding behind deliverance, has seen way too many Burt Reynolds films. Probably even has a signed copy of Burt's naked spread on his bedroom wall!

Name:	slisasucks -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	4/30/2008 11:38:30 PM

I really don't think Alabama Power built this lake for recreation. It was built for the purpose of what it's being used for, the recreation, is just a side benefit that they are allowing us to enjoy. I think of it as a priviledge, just like your drivers license. It's a priviledge to be able to live on this beautiful lake and enjoy it's clean water.

Name:	keyman -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/1/2008 8:41:36 AM

Once again, opinions must yield to facts. The below quote was taken from the Original License Issued in 1957.

“The Project is best adapted to a comprehensive plan for improving and developing the Sipsey Fork of the Black Warrior River and the Black Warrior River for the use and benefit of interstate or foreign commerce, for the improvement and utilization of water-power development, and for other beneficial public uses, including recreational purposes.”

Much of the property taken by APC was taken by imminent domain.
"The power to take private property for public use by a state, municipality, or private person or corporation authorized to exercise functions of public character, following the payment of just compensation to the owner of that property."
This means that APC could not just take the property to provide profits to shareholders, it must provide a public use (recreation etc.).
We do not need to forget that even though APC bought the property under the lake, APC did not rebuild any roads or bridges. The taxpayers rebuilt all roads and bridges to go over and around the lake. So to say the public does not have any rights or an investment in the lake is completely wrong.

keyman

Name:	Deliverance -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/1/2008 11:29:29 AM

You need to change the last part of your Alias... its kind of telling. Git-R-Done!

Name:	Bill -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/2/2008 12:44:58 AM

It looks like the lake is being used for recreation all the time. I saw water skiers, wakeboarders, jetskis and boaters all over the lake last weekend... What's the problem?

Name:	slisasucks -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/2/2008 4:26:40 AM

You're 100% CORRECT Deliverance, just ask your Momma!
Taste Good, last long time

Name:	slisasucks -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/2/2008 4:49:19 AM

Keyman, even when the lake levels were at their lowest in over 40 years late last Summer, I was still able to operate my boat and jet ski on the lake, so recreation is still alive and well on Smith Lake. As far your comments about eminent domain, I remember reading a story about a farmer that needed seeds for planting many years ago, before Smith lake was even thought of. Because of an earlier drought and bad harvest the year before, he had to buy the seeds on credit, hoping that the new harvest would supply enough to feed his family and pay for the seeds he bought on credit. Well, as the story goes, again they had a drought that following year, and he repaid his debt to the store owner by giving him some useless land he had in the Arley area. That useless land, was nothing but canyons and hills, that would one day become water front as well as under water property. That property, is where Hidden Cove Resort is today in Arley, AL. The moral to the story being that all that land surrounding the lake, as well as what is the lake, was basically useless land. So you can cry about eminent domain, but under the circumstances, everyone made out from this deal. Which brings us back to where we are today. Be greatful for what you have today, for it may be gone tomorrow.

Name:	keyman -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/2/2008 8:06:19 AM

Bill
My reply was to the incorrect statement that the lake was not built for recreation, when in fact it was specifically named in the original license
"other beneficial public uses, including recreational purposes".
Bill and Slisasucks
Since you guys work for APC why don't you post how much money was contributed by APC for the roads and bridges that were built to go across and around the lake. Nevermind they did not contribute any!!!

Name:	waterph -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/2/2008 9:32:06 AM

Keyman

These two characters sometimes get confused by facts. Opinions, if non factual based, can lead to misconceptions about Smith Lake and why we want some reasonable level of water control. Or, maybe many of the misstatements are intended to misinform. Keep the facts coming whenever these two are making inaccurate statements.

I would like to ask them two questions - (1) what will you say when one of your grandchildren is seriously injured or killed from a submerged object when the water level is lowered to meet the demands of Gorgas? (2) What are the differences between TVA and Al Power in terms of land ownership and eminent domain rights?

Name:	slisasucks -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/2/2008 12:17:04 PM

According to the original report:
“The Project is best adapted to a comprehensive plan for improving and developing the Sipsey Fork of the Black Warrior River and the Black Warrior River for the use and benefit of interstate or foreign commerce, for the improvement and utilization of water-power development, and for other beneficial public uses, including recreational purposes.”

You will notice that the first and foremost use is:
" use and benefit of interstate or foreign commerce"
This would include keeping downstream rivers navagable!

Secondly:
" improvement and utilization of water-power development"
Of course, this means creating power, which is both accomplished by Smith Lake Dam and the Gorgas Plant!

FINALLY:
"other beneficial public uses, including recreational purposes.”
This of course, would include drinking and irrigation, as well as recreational use!

NOW, again, I ask: Haven't you guys been using this lake for recreational purposes?
You noticed that it didn't include anything about the Windfall from selling lake front lots at HUGE profits? It also doesn't mention anything about raising the levels so that a few individuals could cash-in on cheap land and make a small fortune...

Name:	slisasucks -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/2/2008 12:20:07 PM

Another thing waterph, I can't vouch for Mr. Bill, since I have no clue where this gentleman works, but I can tell you that I don't work or have any family or friends working for Alabama Power. I guess just like keyman needs to continually spread the word of slisa, I have to spread the word of the developers that are behind the slisa drive.

Name:	slisasucks -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/2/2008 12:24:42 PM

Anyone can be hurt on a lake, whether the water levels are high or low. There will always be hidden submerged objects. However, I would rather keep a lot of the surrounding lake areas unpopulated, so that my grandkids don't get run over by a boat or jetski. So the way I look at it; let's keep the seasonal land seasonal.... It makes it less desirable, so it's less likely to sell..... Not that it won't sell at all, but it definitely would take that many more years to sell.... Hopefully getting me well into retirement before the crowds ruin this beautiful lake.

Name:	Bill -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/7/2008 11:55:14 PM

> If a 500 to 502 minimum level is not agreed to by Alabama Power,
> watch the level go down in 2008 even in a non drought year.

Is this your opinion? Or fact? How do you know this? History doesn't say that during a non-drought year the water level will drop like it did in 2007. Can you foresee the future? That's cool. Tell me who wins this years World Series please. I could use a little pocket money.

Name:	Bill -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/8/2008 12:09:01 AM

>Bill and Slisasucks
>Since you guys work for APC why don't you post how much money was
>contributed by APC for the roads and bridges that were built to go
>across and around the lake. Nevermind they did not contribute any!!!

Huh? Who said I work for APC? Are you using that same future telling machine that waterph is using? Do you know this as fact? If so, you're lying. I've never worked for APC and do not now. I don't know who is behind Slisa Sucks either. And it doesn't concern me. Actually I agree with a lot of what he/she says... but hey, that's their opinion. Just like you have yours. I don't mind him posting his opinion, waterph posting his or you posting yours. But don't accuse me of what I'm not. I'd hope you'd allow me to have mine as well, though I rarely speak about it.

What kills me is that when I was a kid my dad told me to make a bully stop bullying you, you should ignore them and they'll get tired of not getting a response and go away.

You guys tried to do that but it is halarious how you just can not last more than a couple days... SlisaSucks irks you SO much that you (and waterph) just can't leave it alone. You HAVE to respond. It's like a game... and from where I'm sitting SlisaSucks is winning. He's got you guys by a string and working you like a couple of puppets. It's a riot.

Do you REALLY think you can change his mind? Why bother?

On the other hand, keep trying... it's a whole lot of fun to watch. :)

Name:	keyman -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/8/2008 8:49:04 AM

Bill, I apologize for my assumption on where you work. I do agree that everyone has the right to their opinion. It is very odd however, how your opinion and Slisasucks opinion are so very often in disagreement with the facts. Your opinion on navigation is your opinion but is against fact. Your opinion on cooling towers is your opinion but against fact. Your opinion on who owns the lake is your opinion but against fact. I do agree that I can't change your mind or Slisasucks because my father told me "their is no one as blind as the one who refuses to see".
Bill I would be happy to show you the facts behind what I say.
I will buy your lunch or Slisasucks lunch and sit down and discuss any of these items. I hope to see all of you on the lake this summer enjoying our beautiful lake.

keyman

Name:	keyman -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/8/2008 8:58:41 AM

Name:	Bill -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/8/2008 11:40:19 PM

Don't sweat it man. It's really no big deal. No apologies are needed. Lifes too short to get worked up about this sort of stuff. But on the other hand if we didn't this forum would be dead.... so the advertisers may as well get SOME advertisment out of it.

Name:	slisasucks -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/14/2008 3:00:04 AM

Mr Keyman, quite frankly, I really don't care what your skewered facts tell you. Though there "Might" be one thing I could agree with you about, the rest of your "Facts" are based on One-sided studies, carried out in order to further yours and the developers that are hiding behind you, agendas. You're right, I don't know, nor do I wish to meet and have lunch with you, not because I'm scared, but because I would rather spend what little time I have on the lake, with my friends and family. About the one thing I could agree with you about: Sure, having a higher "Summer" level would be nice, but NOT at the expense of all that additional seasonal land that those developers are holding onto, hoping that their prices would sky-rocket, becoming "Year-round" and therefor more enticing. It's funny though, that some of the high dollar condo projects, that are being proposed by these same developers that hide behind the SLISA moniker, have not taken off... One that comes to mind is the one that was supposed to be built at the old Camp Jimmy Goodwin(I believe that's the name) I'm sure you know exactly whom those developers are, and you also know they're behind slisa...

Name:	keyman -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/14/2008 10:38:55 AM

Name:	Deliverance -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/14/2008 1:00:33 PM

Keyman, like Ron White says, "You can't fix Stupid!". The best response to these nuts is no response at all. Hang in there!

Name:	slisasucks -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/15/2008 2:11:01 AM

There you go again. You confuse your skewered opinions with facts. That is exactly what I have been saying. You think (opinion) one thing when facts say the opposite. There are no skewered facts only skewered opinions.
If one is not willing to discuss the facts, they must not have any on their side.

keyman

SO LET'S SEE, ACCORDING TO YOUR ABOVE STATEMENTS, THEN THE MANY DEVELOPERS THAT ARE ON THE BOARD OF SLISA IS JUST OPINION? I THINK THAT'S A COLD HARD FACT, JUST AS WELL AS THEIR INTENT OF MAKING ADDITIONAL MILLIONS, IS A COLD HARD FACT. YOUR 700+ FEET OF SEASONAL WATER THAT WOULD EASILY BE WORTH CLOSE TO, IF NOT OVER A MILLION IF IT WERE TO BECOME "YEAR ROUND" WATER, IS ALSO A FACT... NO MR. KEYMAN, YOU'RE THE ONE THAT'S AVOIDING FACTS AND TRYING TO COVER THEM UP WITH OPINIONS.

Name:	slisasucks -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/15/2008 2:13:22 AM

Hey, it's The Burt Reynolds want to be again...
Come on son, at least be original...

Name:	waterph -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/15/2008 4:26:37 AM

Tell me one thing - Why are you opposed to a minimum level for Smith Lake? Don't give me the "bull" about 700 feet, developers, making millions, board members, etc. For once, talk about issues that are important to property owners on Smith Lake. We don't care about your private wars.

Name:	ilovesmithlake -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/15/2008 2:47:33 PM

I believe in facts also #1 fact SMITH LAKE IS BEAUTIFUL when it as its full pool and stays at a reasonal level. FACT #2 ALPC> has rights but so does all who live on this lake and people who doesn't live here who uses this lake for everything else,want to keep it beautifull and keep the fish from dying. And keep the Shorelines intact and free form erosion. FACT#3 Developers aren't the only concerns here on Smith Lake. They are plenty more people who live here who have concerns of their properties. Well I assume this is my oppinion. But of course everyone has them , its just the way you look at them thats important.

Name:	Ivan -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/15/2008 6:52:18 PM

I for one would rather keep the levels at a more constant level, but I'm also a realist, and know that the number one reason for the creation of this lake was power generation. Whether it's from generating power at the dam through the turbines, or from the flow downstream to cool the Gorgas plant, that's the reason for the millions spent by Alabama Power. One also has to look at the minimum downstream levels mandated by the Corps of Engineers for navagation. This isn't as simple as SLISA or anyone else makes it out to be. I don't believe that Alabama Power is the bad person here. When I searched for my property at Smith Lake, I became well informed as to the water level fluctuations, and bought accordingly. During last years record drought, I still had over 15 ft of water below my dock, so researching what I bought prior to taking the plunge, paid off. I just think that people need to look at the WHOLE picture here, and stop the name calling.

Name:	keyman -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/15/2008 7:16:52 PM

Hello again Ivan

I agree there are lots of reasons that the lake goes down. I find it entertaining that most people talk about Navigation downstream without knowing the requirements.
This was take from APC's Environmental Assesment that APC turned into FERC.

"The current license does not specify a navigation flow, and flows for navigation are passed at the project during high or normal water years. The Corps’ operating manual states that during periods of extreme drought, and during any extended drawdown at Bankhead Lake, the Corps would specify the required flow releases from Smith development, not to exceed 486 acre-ft per day (245 cfs). The Corps estimated, in order to meetminimum navigation needs, the Smith development would need to release about 245 cfs to maintain a 540 cfs inflow to Bankhead reservoir."

The Corps has a not to exceed 245cfs. Last year during the worst drought in over 100 yrs Smith Lake discharged over 1100 cfs. That is over 4 times the requirment that the Corps imposed.

There is a way to make power and have the lake during most of the summer. It is an important issue that should be resolved. Smith Lkae has the shortest full pool (3 months) and the largest fluctuation of any APC owned lake.

keyman

Name:	Ivan -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/15/2008 11:14:45 PM

Hey Jared, how have you been? Not much new with me, other than the continued work on our house. I was out there this past weekend and while driving past the Slisa office, I noticed a dark colored Yukon(I think) in the front. I was going to stop on my way back, but then it was gone. I was hoping to finally meet you, but it didn't happen. So is there any new developments in the lake level issue?

Name:	keyman -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/16/2008 10:12:40 AM

Ivan

I would love to meet you as well. Currently FERC is in control of when APC will be issued their license. The Army Corps weighed in on the last day of public notice and said they would like to see modeling done on Smith Lake prior to the license being issued. We are hopeful FERC will not make their judgement until the modeling has been performed. We are willing to live with the model as long as it is performed in a public arena. I am confident that when all the data is on the table it will show that APC can make power and the stakeholders can have higher water levels while still maintaining drinking water and barge traffic. All the preliminary results show that to be the case.

Hope you enjoy what is supposed to be a beautiful weekend.
.
keyman

Name:	Ivan -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/20/2008 12:14:19 AM

Jared, actually, spent most of the weekend working; Cleaning up the yards of both weeds and left over construction materials(Bricks, roofing shingles, etc) Things I should have accomplished months ago, but were not large enough projects to attract my attention.
I was hoping that our new boat dock would be in place for this coming weekend, but that's not going to happen. Looks like I will have at least one more weekend of work, since I won't be launching my boat or skis until the dock is in place.

Name:	slisasucks -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	5/21/2008 2:58:11 AM

Quite frankly, I could care less of the level were more stable. I've been enjoying this lake for many years, and the level fluctuation is just something that one learns to deal with. The one and ONLY reason SLISA was ever formed, was to try and strong-arm APCO into raising the minimum lake levels. SLISA has never cared about the water quality, Renew Our Rivers, or any other CIVITAN issues about Smith Lake. All they care about is getting the level up high enough in order to sell their seasonal lake front land. Talking about it, doesn't change the facts.

Name:	ilovesmithlake -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	6/16/2008 8:09:21 PM

Everyday i watch the water going down already and it is just June and we have had rain. whats up with this??? Its already upsetting to see it just go down overnight. So we really don't know what it will look like by July !!!!!!!!!!!!! I know warrior river has been getting rain also. I quess we just have to pray for more rain.......

Name:	Deliverance -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	6/17/2008 9:35:51 AM

If you go to the below website and put in the "Warrior" river for your selection you will see that AL Power has a guideline graph for water levels. It can rain 40 days and 40 nights and AL Power will still attempt to keep levels "dropped" within that guideline. You will notice that in June it starts dropping.... this happens year after year regardless of rain.

https://lakes.alabamapower.com/ (New Website)

Name:	waterph -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	6/17/2008 3:27:22 PM

The issue is not only the amount of rain but the temperature of the feed water for cooling to Gorgas. Higher temperatures require larger amounts of cooler water from Smith Lake.

Name:	ilovesmithlake -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	6/17/2008 10:43:49 PM

I understand they have to cool the water down ... with all the new homes going up and all the New developments,( not on Smith Lake) just surounding areas . APC should be able to build a cooler to help cool down the hot ones They really must have been doing some heavy work in Gorgas , because they have pulled out atleast 2 ft of water from Smith Lake in 3 weeks. Thats alot of cooling. There has got to be a solution to this somewhere. Keep up the good work Keyman!!!

Name:	Yankee06 -	Reply
Subject:	LAKE LEVELS
Date:	6/18/2008 1:42:19 PM

In a discussion last year on this topic, one discussant who seemed very knowledgeable on Alabama Power polices stated that AP takes 0.8 feet PER WEEK from the lake to take care of Gorgas. The annual lake-level chart on this site page seem to back him up. So do the "winter-pool and summer-pool" goals. The normal high at the beginning of the summer is 510 feet. The normal low by the end of teh summer is 496 ft, or a drop of 14 ft. That works out to about 0.8 ft for every week from the beginning of June to the end of September when the lake begins to fiil up again. Supposedly this is because the river temperatures rise in October, so AP doesn't need the cool waters from Smith lake anymore to cool Gorgas. So now you can join the crowd of us who watch the lake go down every week.

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