| Name: |
slisasucks
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| Subject: |
WATER LEVELS
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Date:
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1/9/2009 2:10:00 PM
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For those IDIOTS that continue complaining about APCO releasing water, watch this video!
URL: Warrior River banks flooded
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| Name: |
waterph
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| Subject: |
WATER LEVELS
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Date:
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1/9/2009 4:20:23 PM
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Same old SLISASUCKS!!!
Everybody is an idiot! APC is infallible like the Pope!! Smith Lake's water level does not really drop to 496 feet in the summer months - this is only a dream - we're imaging these low water levels. Everyone wants flooding downstream on the Warrior River. The only people who complain are seasonal property owners and developers and they are also idiots. Let's set the criteria for tthis forum that we do nott have to be factual and it's OK to accuse with any basis.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I do not remember any post on this forum which was critical of APC's flood control strategy. If I'm wrong, please route me to the specific post that talks about flood control errors by APC.
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Seriously?!
People chill out!
That video was right, the way they seem to pull the water out that caused the flooding was awful. Yet ,waterph, you are also right. The extreme low water levels are really somewhat in our heads. But since you are all going to call each other names, tell me how this will affect the summer levels?
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| Name: |
4691
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| Subject: |
WATER LEVELS
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Date:
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1/10/2009 9:17:49 AM
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The news reporter on the video said that Alabama Power said that they are releasing the water through the turbines and diverting the water through channels so that the releases will not result in further increase in the level of the water downstream. I don't understand that statement. Where do these "channels" go? Doesn't all the water released from Smith Dam flow into the Warrior River? I suppose the sentiment of the people downstream of the dam along the Warrior River is that Alabama Power should stop releases until the flooding downstream has resided.
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| Name: |
lotowner
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| Subject: |
WATER LEVELS
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Date:
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1/10/2009 11:49:55 AM
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I'm new to the forum. After reviewing the video, I would also ask "Where does the water go after it leaves the dam if not in the Warrior River?"
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| Name: |
keyman
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| Subject: |
WATER LEVELS
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Date:
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1/10/2009 6:35:21 PM
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Hello All
Once again SLISASUCKS has managed to blame the wrong side.
Any flooding that occurs downstream is a tragedy. The SLISA proposal would not have prevented the flooding that was caused by the rainfall but it would have prevented some of the additional releases. First we need to understand what caused the flooding downstream of the dam in this instance. Rainfall alone is what caused this flooding initially. There is nothing Smith Lake could have done to prevent the initial flooding. The Flood Control purpose for Smith Lake is to hold the water that is rained on the 944 sq miles that runs into the Smith Lake watershed. The water shed for the Warrior River is 3969 square miles. So the rain falling from the sky over the 3969 square miles ran into streams that dumped into the Warrior River. At this time Smith Lake was still below the 510 and was not releasing water. There was so much rain that the Warrior River exceeded its banks, however the dam at Smith Lake prevented the Warrior from flooding faster than it did. Without the dam there would have been 25% more water in the Warrior River than without the Dam. The outdated flood control policy that APC prevented the Army Corps from changing caused the additional flooding.
I know there are some that would like the water high at all times, however, due to one of the key designs of Smith Lake that is not possible. Flood Control is a major importance for Smith Lake, but once again SLISASUCKS doesn't know the facts.
SLISA has always maintained that the flood control aspects of the river should fall to the Army Corps of Engineers. The Army Corps has in fact tried to revise the flood control policy for the Warrior River during this relicense but has been opposed by none other than APC. I'll be happy to provide the documents that prove that if anyone would like them just email me.
SLISA
proposes to modify the existing rule curve so that water levels would drop in an approximately linear fashion from 510 feet above mean sea level (msl) on Memorial Day to 505 feet msl on Labor Day and then to 502 feet on December 1 where it would remain until approximately March 1, when it would again be coincident with the current rule curve.
Under SLISA’s proposed method of operation, water in excess of that required to maintain the rule curve will be released, but the lake will not fall below the rule curve unless water is required to meet water supply or navigation requirements downstream. Because flood control operations would not change under the SLISA proposal, the maximum lake elevations would not exceed those using the current rule curve. Due to the fact that the current rule curve is not followed is the reason that Smith Lake was put in Flood Stage earlier than it should have been.
keyman
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| Name: |
lotowner
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| Subject: |
WATER LEVELS
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Date:
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1/10/2009 7:46:22 PM
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Thanks Keyman for this information. It was very enlightening.
Based on your summary, I have four questions that I would like to ask.
1. How could rainfall on 944 sq. miles counter the rainfall on 3969 sq. miles, assuming the same inches of rainfall?
2. In what ways is the flood control policy from APC outdated? Can you give more specifics? If their flood control policy is outdated, what otther policies are outdated? Ash control at the fossil fired power plants! A utility as big as TVA apparently has problems with details - Does APC?
3. Why is APC opposed to the C of E’s having responsibility for flood control? I would think that the Corp. has more expertise in this area than APC. This part of your comment concerns me the most.
4. Why is APC not following the current rule curve for Smith Lake? Is this requirement in the current permit or is it a proposal for the new permit which is in the approval process?
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Lotowner,
The Questions you asked are very important I must say. Yet, the most information I want to most about on is number 4. Why isn't the rule curve followed?
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| Name: |
keyman
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| Subject: |
WATER LEVELS
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Date:
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1/10/2009 11:19:10 PM
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All good questions, I hope the follwing helps.
1.The rainfall of 944 can’t counter the 3969, it would have been in addition to the 3969. Smith Lakes Discharge goes into the Warrior River, however, with Smith Dam it is controlled when it enters the river. So the rain that fell in the 944 square miles was kept from rushing into the Warrior River until APC releases it at a much slower rate through the dam.
2.The flood control policy is the same one that was incorporated in 1965. With new technology and modeling there are better ways to manage flood control. Currently when Smith Lake is above the 510’ they have to discharge a certain amount per day. With today’s advanced weather forecasts and better understanding of how the river flows it is possible that Smith Lake could not discharge any of the water until downstream flooding had subsided. For instance Smith flood is between the 510-522 msl. Smith was only at the 513 so we still had plenty of room to hold the water until the downstream had crested and returned below flood stage, unfortunately the policy does not allow that. The other outdated policies are much to long to discuss at this time but will update later.
3.The Corps does have control of flood operations on Smith that supersedes APC. The corps was wanting to update the flood control procedure during the relicensing but APC opposed the timing of the studies. Ironically SLISA based its 502’ on APC data that concluded the 502’ would take a flood of greater than 1000 years to raise the lake to the 522’ and use the spillway.
4.The only logical explanation that APC does not follow the rule curve is due to the amount of water needed to cool the outdated plant at Gorgas. The same plant that has the Arsenic in the Ash pond that was reported in the other topic on this forum. Gorgas requires almost a billion gallons per day in the summer months to keep the Warrior River cool enough for Gorgas to operate in accordance with temperature requirements.
The basic misunderstanding of all the naysayers is that APC has since 1974 mismanaged the operations on Smith Lake. The rule curve is just that, a set of rules in which to manage the lake. APC has systematically violated this curve and that has caused informed stakeholders to rise up in an attempt to hold APC accountable for its actions.
keyman
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| Name: |
lotowner
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| Subject: |
WATER LEVELS
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Date:
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1/11/2009 2:02:37 AM
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Thanks Keyman - an excellent summary. You appear to have an excellent understanding of the complexities of Smith Lake as it relates to APC's operations in this area.
This has helped me a lot. The more information that we have, the better we can understand what has gone on in the past and what needs to be done in the future.
It appears to me that Gorgas is still a critical part of the equation and very little progress can be made until this is resolved.
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| Name: |
Bill
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| Subject: |
WATER LEVELS
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Date:
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1/11/2009 11:48:58 AM
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It's really pretty simple.
Someone tell me why... WHY... APCOs customers that do not own property on Smith Lake should have their rates raised just so that small minority of people can have year round water on a lake that most of them (APCO customers) probably can't afford and would love to be able to have the money to own?
Jared, I'd like to hear your answer to the following question.
Tell me why APCO should NOT use their resources (Smith Lake Reservoir) to cool the Gorgas plant instead of spending millions and millions of dollars to build cooling towers to do the same thing?
Don't you think it is good that a corporation is looking out for their customers? That seems like the kind of company I'D like to do business with.
Don't you think that the majority of the customers of APCO and of course their shareholders appreciate that they are using their resources wisely and saving them money?
If I had tons of shares of Alabama Power Company stock I certainly would not be happy if they spent tons of money to do something that they could do without spending that money.
Maybe they're really not out to screw the people of Smith Lake. Maybe they're just a corporation that is looking out for their customers and the people who invest in them.
Did you ever consider that?
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| Name: |
keyman
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| Subject: |
WATER LEVELS
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Date:
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1/11/2009 12:29:26 PM
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Bill
I can answer that question.
APC has a rule curve that was established when the lake was built. From 1962 until 1973 they operated the lake almost to the rule curve. When they built unit 10 at Gorgas they can no longer follow the rule curve. They have been viloating this rule curve since 1974. The only options to follow the current rule curve is either to cut back at Gorgas or install cooling towers. If cooling towers have to be installed to follow the current rule curve then the SLISA rule curve can be followed also.
If APC has free reign to do what they want then why do they need license from FERC?
APC does not own Smith Lake or the water. They only operate it,that is a fact.
Bill I'm sure that the stockholders wish there were no environmental standards as well. With no environmental standards APC would not have to build scrubbers or attempt to conatin the Arsenic which is also cutting into profits. I'm sure most would agree that the health to humans should come first followed by animals and environment. So APC has rules that they have to go by. Every APC customer paid for the coolong towers at Miller and every other location that has cooling towers so why would they not pay for the ones at Gorgas?
And about the other, looking out for the stockholders.
Why for years did they spend money on every TV , Radio station and newspaper advertising when they are a monopoly?
Bll answer this question
Alabama has almost more river miles to produce hydro power than any other state, the coal burning plants that APC operates are the dirtiest and most dangerous in US, at least one that does not have a cooling tower expense that it should have and the state produce 55% more power tahn it uses. Why is APC rates not near the cheapest in the US? It was 18th not near the cheapest.
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| Name: |
waterph
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| Subject: |
WATER LEVELS
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Date:
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1/11/2009 4:16:14 PM
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Jared
Good answers to Bill's questions. One might also ask why should the people on TVA's grid system in Alabama have to pay higher electrical rates because of the massive sludge release clean up cost at the Kingston Steam plant in Tennessee? Or, why should the people in Ohio have to pay for the hurricane losses in New Orleans?
The question of corporations using their financial assets properly could also be asked of the dollars that APC spent at both Democratic and Republican National Conventions. As a stockholder of APC and a customer, I have absolutely no control at all as to whether APC elects to spends hundreds of thousands of dollars for these activities. Do union members agree as to how the union leaders spend millions to support a particular candidate or party. We all know the answers to these two questions. Corporate and Union leaders make these decisions without consulting their members or stockholders. Compliance to laws is sometimes done only under pressure from federal agencies such as FERC.
APC and no other publically traded corporation should not be allowed to deviate from agreed to guidleines at their pleasure. Property owners on Smith Lake are required by APC to adhere to standard for a 60 foot walkway length; a $250 permit fee to install a swim deck; and others. Why should APC be allowed to deviate at their pleasure and not follow the rule curve when additional capacity is needed at Gorgas. Cooling towers should have been installed years ago when the new capacity was started.
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| Name: |
slisasucks
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| Subject: |
WATER LEVELS
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Date:
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1/11/2009 7:19:58 PM
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I have one question for Mr Keyman:
Why don't all the developers that are trying to get APCO to foot the bill for the Gorgas Colling towers, foot the bill themselves? This way, the ones with the most to gain, pay the bill? If I remember, you at one time mentioned owning some seasonal land yourself. 1000 ft maybe? At the going rate for deep water lots, you could easily rake in a cool million.... The same goes for all the rest of the cronies that have substantial seasonal holdings.... I realize you're a small fish compared to the rest of them, but since you'll receive a substantial windfall from your investment, along with the rest of them, PAY FOR THE COOLING TOWERS!
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| Name: |
Bill
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| Subject: |
WATER LEVELS
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Date:
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1/11/2009 7:43:23 PM
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What kind of question is that?
I have no idea if the 'facts' you just stated are true or not.
And even if they are how would know the answer to that question? I have no idea why their rates are set as they are. Do you really expect me to?
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| Name: |
keyman
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| Subject: |
WATER LEVELS
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Date:
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1/11/2009 8:24:20 PM
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SLISASUCKS
The first reason is that I am not violating any rules that FERC governs.
As for the cooling towers themselves they should be paid for by the company that has robbed the three counties
of their resources for the last 30 years.
SLISASUCKS I will give you a chance to buy all my seasonal property for current value. As a matter of fact it is all for sale now so anyone who wants to buy it now before it becomes more valueable just let me know. I do hope you are at least smart enough to realize that much of the seasonal property that is seasonal at the 496 will also be seasonable at the 502.
This is not about seasonal property this is about using a resource in this case water to its maximum advantage. It benefits the environment, the wildlife and the people who can use and enjoy it. It benefits both upstream and downstream users by proportioning the releases so it is not feast or famine. The only user that does not benefit is Gorgas.
Gorgas steam plant was not in the original license or in the relicense as a project purpose. Public recreation is in the original license and the relicense as a project purpose. FERC has already told APC that it was going to have to at least follow their current rule curve, and as stated earlier APC can not follow its current rule curve without cooling towers or reducing Gorgas generation. The following is take from APC's own record to FERC.
"Limiting the amount of water that may be released from storage at Smith during the important summer
and fall seasons will prevent Gorgas Steam Plant from being able to operate and meet its
NPDES temperature requirements."
BILL
I think that was a fair question. I can give you references from the EPA, PSC , Energy Department , FERC and the Birmingham News to back up my facts if you would like. Where do you refernces come from? I just thought since you said you would like to deal with that kind of company you might have some insight to how they actually operate.
keyman
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| Name: |
lotowner
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| Subject: |
Gorgas
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Date:
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1/12/2009 9:26:58 AM
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Keyman
I read your response and the paragraph below roused my interest.
Gorgas steam plant was not in the original license or in the relicense as a project purpose. Public recreation is in the original license and the relicense as a project purpose. FERC has already told APC that it was going to have to at least follow their current rule curve, and as stated earlier APC can not follow its current rule curve without cooling towers or reducing Gorgas generation. The following is take from APC's own record to FERC.
"Limiting the amount of water that may be released from storage at Smith during the important summer
and fall seasons will prevent Gorgas Steam Plant from being able to operate and meet its
NPDES temperature requirements."
By this, I assuming that Smith Lake was created and licensed initially for Hydro electrical production only. It was also interesting that you noted tthat the Rule Curve was followed for many years until APC elected to instaall additional capacity at Gorgas. During this time, APC engineering apparently decided that major capital expenditures could be avoided by using the cooler water from Smith lake for cooling. This may have been a good option for APC but it apparently has become a disaster for water level managent during the warm months.
Based on this, I would assume that the odds of FERCE permitting APC for the next 40 years without requiring APC to install some type of site cooling at Gorgas is remote and unlikely. If it does happen, would the next step be relief via the courts? I would project that APC does not want a court case over this.
There appearss to be too much compelling evidence that APC has deviated from following the rule curve. My understanding is that if this is done, APC cannot operate Gorgas at full capacity. Is it not true that FERC has stated that APC must follow the Rule Curve? Maybe the verdict would be for APC to follow the Rule Curve.
Whatever is required at Gorgas to allow this would be at the expense of APC. This would be corrective actions that are required because of bad decisions by APC when additional capacity was installed at Gorgas. I do not view this in any manner as a developer issue.
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| Name: |
rab2352
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| Subject: |
Gorgas
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Date:
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1/12/2009 5:26:40 PM
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If the water being discharged from Gorgas is too hot and exceeds the permit limit, the solution is to cool it before it reaches the Warrior RIver, It should not be cooled with water from Smith.
Dilution is not the Solution.
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| Name: |
keyman
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| Subject: |
Gorgas
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Date:
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1/13/2009 10:25:48 PM
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I know many people wonder how important the authorized purpose or authorized use really is.
I think the Supreme Court decision that denied drinking water to Atlanta because it was not an authorized use is a huge step in realizing the importance. If Atlanta can't take drinking water then what makes APC think it can take cooling water? The iroinc thing here is that APC was the one arguing that drinking water (the most basic of needs) was not an authorized use in GA while arguing that they should be able to use unauthorized water withdrawals in AL for cooling purposes.
YEA BILL sounds like the company you would like to do business with. (won't let people drink water but helps themselves to water for POWER)
keyman
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| Name: |
lotowner
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| Subject: |
Gorgas
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Date:
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1/14/2009 9:17:52 AM
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Keyman
For a new person to the forum, thiss is a bit of revealing information. If I understand what you are saying, APC's use of cooling water forr Gorgas is not authorized in tthe original permit. If this is true, why would FERC issue a permit to APC for tthe next 40 years that authorizes an illegial action. I would suspect that the Atlanta case would be a law precedent for any future acions against APC for cooling water for Gorgas.
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| Name: |
Bill
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| Subject: |
Gorgas
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Date:
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1/14/2009 12:15:06 PM
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If it were illegal they probably wouldn't.
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| Name: |
LOCOonWater
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| Subject: |
Gorgas
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Date:
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1/15/2009 5:33:11 PM
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Bill are you so naive that you really believe APC would not do anything illegal, Come on Bill you are only fooling yourself. No one in their right mind would believe APC or any other corporation want push the legal limits until someone says enough is enough, just look at wall street.
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| Name: |
waterph
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| Subject: |
Gorgas
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Date:
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1/15/2009 7:01:21 PM
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Comments from Tennessee newspapers about TVA that might also be applicable to APC or other utilities.
1. Critics of the Tennessee Valley Authority say aging facilities, a cost-cutting mentality and resistance to oversight may have contributed to the agency’s three environmental spills in as many weeks.
“It hurts me to see a great agency like TVA getting a black mark this big,” said former TVA Chairman S. David Freeman, a longtime utility executive who often criticizes TVA for not taking a lead in adopting alternate energy policies. “I guess hardening of the arteries occurs in organizations just like it does people.”
Mr. Freeman said the Kingston and Widows Creek steam plants — where two ash spills took place in the past month — were built more than a half century ago and have outlived their useful life, normally about 30 years.
2. “TVA’s DNA is for low-cost power, and the aging coal plants are a way to try to keep power costs down, even if the plants don’t meet today’s standards for clean air and reliability,” said Mr. Freeman, who began his utility career in 1950 at the Kingston plant
3. Stephen Smith, director of the Alliance for Clean Energy, said TVA resistance to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency’s push for newer plants with better coal pollution controls would have saved money for ratepayers and taxpayers in the long run.“Everyone thought they should be moving on to new technologies, but TVA kept these things propped up,” he said. “Managers and operators made decisions to maximize short-term benefits over long-term needs.”
4. Eric Schaeffer, director of the Washington, D.C.-based Environmental Integrity Project and a former director of EPA's office of civil enforcement, agreed with the governor’s assessment and said TVA cultivated an untouchable image. “With TVA, you combine federal agency with utility culture,” said Mr. Schaeffer, who resigned from EPA in 2002 to protest what he said was the Bush administration’s political interference with efforts to enforce the Clean Air Act. TVA is “a little bit their own ship,” he said. “If the (U.S.) Justice Department can’t take them to federal court, I think it starts to affect their culture ... There’s not really a culture of accountability.”
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Hi Everyone,
Can someone update me on whether any legal action is being taken against Alabama Power, or if APC is considering modifying the lake level formula?
Thanks
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| Name: |
slisasucks
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| Subject: |
Gorgas
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Date:
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2/19/2009 8:02:18 AM
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HEY JARED, WHY DON'T YOU POST THE NAMES OF ALL OF THE PEOPLE IN CHARGE OF SLISA? AND WHY YOU'RE AT IT, SINCE YOU LIKE TO STATE SUPPOSED FACTS, STATE THEIR REAL ESTATE HOLDINGS ON AND AROUND SMITH LAKE? I THINK IT'S ABOUT TIME THAT THE GENERAL PUBLIC BE MADE AWARE OF THE TRUE SLISA AGENDA.
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what is your point. I have realestate holdings on this lake that will never be developed because I put value on walking through the woods and stepping in deer crap.
You dont seem to be able to address the points of fact that have been brought to the table. The only thing you seem to be able to do is personally attack people who have a different opinion than you. I might say opinion that is backed by fact is a stronger persuader than personal hatred that you seem to spew.
Recluse for a reason
Wreckluse
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