| Name: |
runningwild
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/17/2009 11:53:19 AM
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When will apc ever understand to have a lake you must have water. When is the ruling coming?
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| Name: |
DUCKBUT
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/17/2009 5:23:51 PM
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ITS THEIR LAKE, THEY CAN PUMP ALL THE WATER THEY WANT. IF YOU HAVE BEEN ON THE LAKE FOR ANY LENGTH OF TIME, YOU WOULD KNOW THAT SMITH LAKE WILL GO UP AND DOWN. CAN NOT NAVIGATE THE WARRIOR RIVER IF SMITH DOES NOT RELEASE WATER. SMITH LAKE DAM IS ALSO A FLOOD CONTROL DAM.
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| Name: |
runningwild
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/17/2009 6:18:38 PM
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Duckbut if you knew what you were talking about it would be amazing. All water ways belong to the public under a supreme court ruling, not apc. And I have been on this lake long enough to know that it has never flooded and not because apc does such a find job but because of the amount of rain it would take to do so, and God said he would not do that again. And last even you should know you can not have water in the black warrior if you let it all out of smith lake when it is not nessesary.
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| Name: |
waterph
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/17/2009 7:20:20 PM
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DUCKBUT
Are you the long, lost brother of SLISASUCKS? Or, are you a reincarnated SLISASUCKS? No one believes this crap any more about APC and water level management for the Warrior River being the primary cause for water fluctuations on Smith Lake. Also, this dog will not hunt that APC owns Smith Lake and can do anything that they want to do. FERC is not out of the picture yet.
It is well documented that the primary driving force for water fluctuations on Smith Lake is the Gorgas Power Plant's need for cooling water due to the absence of cooling towers and higher steam generation rates for electricity production.
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| Name: |
Bill
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/18/2009 1:00:47 AM
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I knew the quiet couldn't last forever.
What are you all whining about now?
I'd think you'd be happy as hell the lake is still almost 507 in the middle of FEBRUARY! Geeze it's only 3' below full pool summer level!
Give it a rest will ya? :-)
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| Name: |
waterph
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/18/2009 8:43:35 AM
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Hello Bill
How you make my day with your logic - Be Happy! Be Happy! Don't Worry! Gee, the lake is at 507! It's OK if it goes to 496 in July!Everything is wonderful! The forum is restricted to those who agree with my opinion as to what is acceptable!
Whatever Obama and the bunch in Washington do must also be good from your perspective because they "own" this country for the next four years. Citizens who disagree with their policies must keep quiet and not "complain". Everything now is OK even though the bottom might fall out in the next 6 months if this new stimulus package does not work.
Is this the same philopsophy that you apply to APC?
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| Name: |
DUCKBUT
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/18/2009 9:20:23 AM
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YOU WATER LEVEL CRY BABIES SHOULD HAVE TOOK A HARDER LOOK AT YOUR PROPERTY BEFORE YOU BOUGHT. WATER LEVELS ARE NOTHING NEW TO SMITH LAKE BEEN DOING IT SINCE WHEN. MAKE ADJUSTMENTS AND GO TO SOMETHING ELSE.
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| Name: |
turnipgreen
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/18/2009 2:01:04 PM
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I'm not trying to get into an argument with anyone, but they have to release water sometimes. They have been holding pretty steady at 507, which is above the rule curve for this time of year. I'm sure they are releasing water now in anticipation of the rain we got yesterday and expect today. We saw in December and in early January that a big rain can make the lake rise 6-8 ft in a matter of days. This time of year is when we get those types of rains in normal years, so they can't hold it at full pool at the current time.
I'm also not sure I agree with some about what is considered a flood. I think some people are saying it has to get above 522 to be a flood, but from my understanding anything above 510 is above full pool, and thus would be considered a flood. I don't think it can technically get above 522, since that is where the spillway kicks in, and water just flows around the dam.
I'm all for a full pool all summer and through September, but wanting a full pool all year long isn't realistic.
Ron
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| Name: |
DUCKBUT
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/18/2009 2:23:03 PM
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FINALLY, SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS. GOOD FOR YOU TURNUPGREEN.
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| Name: |
waterph
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/18/2009 3:18:01 PM
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Let us all be realistic on one thing. Having a full pool summer through September will NEVER happen as long as APC operates the Gorgas plant as in the years up through 2008. Do not expect any changes in water levels summer through September in a normal rainfall year unless APC is directed by FERC or the courts to make changes.
Secondly, most everyone on this forum understands water releases for hydro electricity generation, navigation on the warrior, water for the different municipalities, flood control, and etc. These have never been questioned. The primary issue for water level management summer through September is the massive amounts required for cooling at the Gorgas plant.
Why is it so difficult to understand how Gorgas impacts water levels in the summer months?
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| Name: |
turnipgreen
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/18/2009 3:23:51 PM
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The only reason I replied this time is in the past few weeks I've seen Gorgas mentioned as the reason water is being released now, and that smith lake has never flooded. Technically we had a minor flood just recently when the water went up to 514 or so. And there is no way water is being released for gorgas at the current time, the water temps everywhere are plenty cool right now for any cooling operation. APC wants a full pool in June, so they can release water and generate power and cool gorgas, so no release of water right now is in their interest.
You have to also admit that we have had a drought the past few years, water does have to be released in the summer for some things, and that the water will go up and down even without gorgas.
Ron
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| Name: |
Bill
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/18/2009 5:46:05 PM
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waterph said:
"Whatever Obama and the bunch in Washington do must also be good from your perspective because they "own" this country for the next four years. Citizens who disagree with their policies must keep quiet and not "complain". Everything now is OK even though the bottom might fall out in the next 6 months if this new stimulus package does not work."
I really don't pay much attention to your posts so I must have missed this the first time through.
What does President Obama and his cabinet have to do with anything I've got to say? It's interesting that you brought that up when it has nothing to do with this discussion at all.
I learn a little more about you everytime you open your trap.
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| Name: |
slisasucks
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/19/2009 7:51:50 AM
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WHAT A STUPID REDNECK!
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| Name: |
slisasucks
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/19/2009 7:53:32 AM
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NO IDIOT, I DIDN'T NEED TO POST, BECAUSE YOU AND YOUR ALTER EGO JARED HAVEN'T BEEN POSTING YOUR STUPID REMARKS. GIVE IT A REST, SLISA IS DEAD
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| Name: |
DUCKBUT
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/19/2009 8:27:16 AM
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USING GORGUS AS A REASON IS FOOLISH. GORGUS WAS IN OPERATION A LONG TIME BEFORE SMITH LAKE WAS BUILT. WHY NOT ENJOY THE LAKE AND TAKE IT'S FALLING WATER LEVELS IN STRIDE. I DO. DOES NOT BOTHER ME AT ALL.
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| Name: |
waterph
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/19/2009 9:58:23 AM
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SLISASUCKS, Bill, and WATERBUT
It's such a beautiful day today and I log onto the forum and see such hateful language. You three need to learn to be nicer to everyone.
Your mothers would be so disappointed in the words you use to describe people that you do not agree with. I'll bet that you three individuals had an unhappy childhood and you would not share with your playmates. When you disagreed with someone, did you take your ball and go home?
Don't use degrading names such as idiot, etc.. These names are very hurtful. Substitute names such as neighbor, etc.
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| Name: |
slisasucks
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/19/2009 3:35:23 PM
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Duckbut, I can't agree with you more.... Why noy try enjoying this great lake we have been blessed with, instead of constantly complaining? SLISA was created BY DEVELOPERS in order to BENEFIT DEVELOPERS. They can care less about the environment, water quality or your waterfront. All they care about is getting the rule curve raised in order to make their less desireable "Seasonal" land, be worth more. PERIOD. Anything else they say, is pure retoric, plain and simple.
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| Name: |
slisasucks
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/19/2009 4:17:07 PM
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Hey H2OPH, I bet you were the kid that was never picked for the team, but because your mommy complained, they had to let you play anyway...
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| Name: |
keyman
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/22/2009 11:52:33 AM
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Duckbut
Your logic is what is foolish. You obviously do not know history.
You are right to say that Gorgas has been around longer then Smith Lake, however, you must not know that Gorgas doubled it capacity in 1973-1974. From 1962 through 1972 APC actually followed the rule curve very closely. After the expansion of Gorgas, APC has not followed the rule curve.
This arguement comes down to math, water needed for navigation from Smith Lake is 245 cfs plus water needed for drinking water 150 cfs. So that is 395 cfs needed for drinking water and navigation. Gorgas (according to APC) needs 1500 cfs.
1500-395=1105 So Gorgas needs 1105 cfs in excess to operate.
Surely you can look at the math and see that Gorgas is the reason.
If not here is a quote from APC.
"Limiting the amount of water that may be released from storage at Smith during the important summer and fall seasons will prevent Gorgas Steam Plant from being able to operate".
Ron
SLISA has not requested Full Pool year round. Flood control is a very important function. The 502 was chosen based upon flood probabilities calculated by APC. The flood easement between the 510-522 is not to protect upstream users, it is designed to hold the water from flooding downstream. Technically you are right
about anytime the lake is above 510. When the lake goes above the 510 the Corps of Engineers have very specific rules on how the lake is operated. These operations are based upon minimizing downstream flooding. SLISA has stated numerous times that it does not wish to limit the flood control capabilities.
keyman
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| Name: |
DUCKBUT
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/23/2009 9:11:27 AM
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KEYMAN, YOU SEEM LIKE A VERY INTELLIGENT PERSON. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU OWN PROPERTY ON THE LAKE OR NOT. IF YOU DO ,IT SOUNDS AS IF YOU HAVE SEASONAL WATER. NOT SMART TO BUY PROPERTY WITH SEASONAL WATER
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Duckbutt That reply was very impressive. The people of the forum love to hear(read) your words. REMEMBER YOU HAVE TO KEEP POSTING. We always need to be reminded of the foolishness of stewarding our resourses. It is very important that we not speak out and change things when big corps. break the rules and change agreements with little folks. REMEMBER you really dont own anything, ownership is something that was created by the selfish who wont share. Probably prople who wanted stuff from others that they didnt deserve.
COMING SOON FROM GORGAS. GORGAS STEAM ASHCREAM WILL MAKE YOU FAST AS MERCURY AND LEAVE YOU DEHYDRATED. CHECK YOUR BOWL. IT IS ALREADY EMPTY. remember with gorgas around you never need to worry about flooding. we have taken care of that
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| Name: |
turnipgreen
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/23/2009 11:42:32 AM
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keyman,
My original response was due to several people questioning why water was being released, and also it seemed that they were implying that it was being released to cool Gorgas. I think some facts in both direction have been misunderstood by some. At this time of the year water releases are for flood control. The water for cooling of Gorgas is plenty cool right now without water from Smith Lake.
I don't know what the answer is for summer time. I can see the argument both ways, but I still acknowledge that APC built the dam. It would not have been built just for recreation. I would think that APC would have an equal argument that cooling Gorgas is a legal use of the waters of smith lake (since Gorgas produces electricity, which is one reason for the dam), as much as we have that smith lake is for recreation.
Extreme arguments on both sides seem to produce nothing but bitterness. Both sides seem to be just as guilty at name calling and argument baiting on this particular forum. I don't see that either helps anything.
Ron
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| Name: |
4691
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/23/2009 7:17:23 PM
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Duckbut said "...NOT SMART TO BUY PROPERTY WITH SEASONAL WATER". Wow, what good advice. I am sure all the people who purchased seasonal water lots wished they had had the advantage of your "smart" advice before making their decision to buy.
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| Name: |
waterph
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/23/2009 8:38:47 PM
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I sure do wish I had one of those "non-seasonal" lots that everybody talks about where the water level never changes year round. I wish I knew how APC managed part of Smith Lake in this manner. I'll bet that those who have "non seasonal" lots are might proud that they bought them. They must be very smart people.
I also wish that somebody would issue warrants for these "money hungry" developerss on Smith Lake. How dare a person invest his money for the purpose of making a profit. I'll bet that the only reason that these few want high water level is so that they can make millions on their "seasonal" lots. Current property owners should be ashamed if they make a profit when they sell their property.
I'm sure that 95% of the "seasonal" property owners do not want good water levels year round. It's much better when the level shifts from 510 to 496. We are able to see stumps, sand bars, rocks, etc that we would not be able to see if the water level stayed above 502.
I'm so thankful that I was one of the chosen few that APC has allowed to spend their hard earned money to buy "seasonal" property and construct a house on Smith Lake. Should us "seasonal" property owners show sorrow for any comments that have been made in the past that were critical of water management practices by APC? How dare us "seasonal" lot owners to be so naive. We need to be thankful what we are allowed to be on the lake.
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| Name: |
keyman
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/25/2009 9:11:31 PM
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Ron
I try to present facts as well as an opininion. I agree that the name calling should cease. As for Gorgas being an argument, that has already been addressed by the US Supreme Court. the US Supreme Court ruled against Georgia being able to withdraw drinking water for Atlanta simply because it was not an authorized purpose. Gorgas is not an authorized purpose, however recreation is.
I agree that there should be moderation, under the Slisa Proposal more Hydro Generation is produced than is produced now.
Eveyone
It sometimes seems that the forums are more like a debate team
rather than intelligent people learning from one another. It seems that if you are for APC and against SLISA that no matter how many facts are presented you try to defend the side you were given to debate.
I don't have an underlying issue, I started trying to educate myself on the rights I have as a property owner. I discovered
that I was not being told the truth about lake ownership,licensing or what the water was being used for.
When someone lies to me over and over again I try to find out why. Through public records the evidence is clear that the main reason for lake level decline in the summer months is due to cooling water releases for Gorgas. That is not an opinion that is a fact.
If your opinion is that APC should be able to do what they want, then that is your opinion to have. If you think I'm a money hungry developer, then that is your opinion to have. However if you are going to argue facts and not opinions please bring the facts to the table. I am ceratinly willing to look at the facts.
I just wish everyone would be open minded and try to educate themselves before arguing points that have already been proved or
disproved. We should use these forums to further benefit Smith Lake not degrade one another like a Jerry Springer episode.
keyman
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| Name: |
turnipgreen
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/26/2009 7:51:59 AM
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Keyman,
Just taking a legalistic view here, as I just helped my son in a school mock trial. I don't have the exact wording on the usages of the dam/lake. Does it state electric generation, or hydro electric generation? Just wondering if APC could legally argue that Gorgas is for electric generation, so it fits into the approved use of the lake. While that argument might be seen as a technicality, in legal sense it might hold water.
Ron
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| Name: |
keyman
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/26/2009 11:11:40 PM
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Ron
APC may try to argue many things.
The below quote is taken from the original license in 1957.
"The project is best adapted to a comprehensive plan for improving and developing the Sipsey Fork of the Black Warrior and the Black Warrior River for the use and benefit of interstate or foreign commerce, for the improvement and utilization of water-power development, and for other beneficial public uses, including recreational purposes."
The definition of water-power
The power of flowing or falling water to drive machinery or generate electricity.
As a part of the license APC was supposed to follow a rule curve.
There inability to follow this curve is what led to the current dispute. APC takes more water than the rules allow. This water is being taken for a use that is not an authorized purpose. Had APC followed the rules Smith Lake would typically have been near the 505' on Labor Day. FERC has already stated that APC must find a way to comply with the rule curve. Without Gorgas decreasing production or the addition of cooling towers APC can not follow the current rule curve or the SLISA proposed curve.
keyman
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| Name: |
Handy Man
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/27/2009 3:28:17 PM
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Like many, I'm bored with reading what has become an argument. IMO there's two facts... some people bought property not knowing this lake or how it is operated and are stuck with the big surprize. The other thing is that theoretically conditions could be improved. Arguing over this crap isn't helping. The attitudes I've seen in the past few years have shocked me at times. I've seen people so anal that they are very inconsiderate of others. I've read attacks on local people who are very hard working and struggly to provide for their family soley because they are working on the side of the lake and the job site is not pretty enough for some people. Good grief! It's a job and construction gets nasty.. petty complaints and arguments that are really inconsiderate. I'm beginning to think it was much nicer and the people were much friendlier when it was just tents and shacks on the banks. I'm all for more consistent water levels but fact is that nature has something to do with it. This time of year we can expect floods and the water level should be quite low to allow the lake to catch the water. I've seen water at 516 in May... low levels this time of year is a good thing unless you like picking up all he trash that washes up on the bank and is pulled into the lake when the water level gets high then receeds. I'm sure I'll get a little bashing for this post.. I did last time I had much to say about anything. All I can say is that if you're too good for this lake or the people on this lake then why the hell did you buy property here? This is a beautiful place with lots of wonderful people around and some are going to make a buck providing you with whatever you're willing to spend your money for.
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| Name: |
LOCOonWater
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/27/2009 4:49:21 PM
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Why is it that everytime someone says anything about the water levels they get a down the road treatment about the property they bought. As keyman has stated if APC would just follow the rule curve that was set I don't think many would be complaining, but because APC has not followed the curve I feel everyone should be speaking out against APC, reguardless where your property is.
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| Name: |
turnipgreen
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/27/2009 5:12:02 PM
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I avoid posting on here as much as I can, there just doesn't seem to be anything useful, only one side complaining about the low water, and one side picking an argument for fun. However the title of this post was "still pumping", this is in February, and the water level is way above the curve. Please tell me how in the world that can be interpreted as anything but a complaint for no reason. If you have a dock, then you may have had to adjust cables when the water got up to 515, I did. My dock is attached higher than most, but even so if the water had gotten up another foot or so I would have had to worry about electrical issues drying out later. That is a fact I have to worry about, anything below 522, but it isn't something that should happen every year due to keeping water levels up in February.
As far as I know the rule curve may not be as low in August as it has been recently, but it still allows them to draw it down to 496. It has been doing that, even by Jared's statements, since the early 70s. I'm sorry, but if you bought property without acknowledging that, it wasn't a good idea. And like it or not, people pay more for property that doesn't lose water, or loses it later in the season. It is just a fact.
I would like water to stay later in the summer months, but I knew what I was buying when I bought it. I have to take my boat out at about 502, that is just a fact. In most non drought years that is fine.
I'm sorry for ranting. But some on here are whining, and some on here are being abrasive.
Ron
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| Name: |
waterph
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/27/2009 8:26:41 PM
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LOCOonWater
I totally agree with you. I am a property owner and not a developer. I want clean water, flood control, water for municipalities, and water for navigation. Now that we've got this out of the way, let's get to the largest single issue on Smith Lake that's debated on this forum - the massive amounts of cooling water required from Smith Lake in the hot summer months for Gorgas.
There is minimum debate on speeds of water craft, dangerous acts by pontoon boats, water skiers jumping behind boat wakes, derbis in the water, etc.
To continue to doubt what APC is doing in the hot summer months is ludicrous. APC has admitted that Gorgas cannot operate without Smith Lake's cooler water. How much data does Jared Key have to post on this web site.
I have yet to see a post that disagrees with Jared's data. The only comments that are posted are: (1) You should not have bought a seasonal lot; (2) Only developers are pushing higher water levels during the summer months; (3) APC owns Smith Lake and we should be glad that they allow us to use it: or (4) Get your +&%$ off Smith Lake if you do not like the way the waterl level fluctuates.
There is another side and that is this - Correct the cooling problems at Gorgas and the water level changes will be as originally visioned (up or down movements due to rain fall, water for electricity via hydro, flood control, navigation, and water for municipalities. Water level debates will suddenly disappear.
I whole heartily believe Jared when he states that recreation was included as part of the original permit by the Federal Government for Smith Lake. I also believe Jared when he states that extreme fluctuations in water level only started when significant capacity changes were implemented at Gorgas via the addition of additional steam capacity.
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| Name: |
rab2352
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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2/28/2009 8:59:00 AM
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WaterpH,
That is one of the most rational and concise summary of the concerns many of us on the lake have. . Some of the rants from slisasucks and others like him seem to come directly from the APCO talking points.
Keep it up. Logic and common sense will eventually prevail.
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| Name: |
Ivan
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| Subject: |
Still pumping
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Date:
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5/31/2009 12:12:32 PM
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Is SLISA dead? I haven't been able to locate their website...
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